I am beginning to think that Umbraco is too free form or unstructured or something... it's really confusing working with many packages... everything works in it's own way and it seems like every project is like starting from scratch... Comparing it to something like, say, Wordpress where a base functionality is available right out of the box, no need to install any packages or anything.
I totally get the idea that Umbraco offers unlimited flexibility, but with that comes apparently unlimited complexity. Packages aren't guaranteed not to interfere with one another and often do. It's sometimes impossible to uninstall them. Learning to use a custom datatype can be a real pain. On and on...
I don't want to be negative, I am just wondering if maybe we DO in fact need more functionality baked into the core of Umbraco including some basic modules... blog, events, news, etc... NO templates per se, but a basic set of document types, datatypes and macros that get a site rolling. The provided starter kits are "ok", but really aren't that amazing and do TOO much in terms of installing their own CSS and templates...
I am finding myself spending too much time building basics. If I install a blog package, problems always seem to crop up, it takes over the site, or isn't clear how to integrate with what I've already built.
Who else relates to what I'm saying and what can we do about it if anything?
I have been using Umbraco for 2 years now and personally I absolutely love the product.
I hear what you are saying and yes you do seem to spend time doing the same tasks for each new site. I too have exerienced the frustration of installing a package and things aren't as you want them in terms of css, templates, document types, etc.
Whilst I haven't had the time to do it myself, a good idea to develop a base site the way you want it with core packages installed and playing nicely together, with a template structure that you want, with a document type structure that you want, etc, etc.
Then you could create a package from that site and install the package each time you start a new site. If a new site doesn't require some funcitonality you can then simply delete the document types, templates, related css, etc.
Just in the past 2 weeks I tried creating a package for the first time. It was a fun exercise, the interface is good, but you do need to think through things.
I probably created and installed the package 20 - 30 times during the process - there were things I didn't think through properly and so had to rebuild it often!
It was however a good learning curve and one I enjoyed - or is that just my memory blocking out the frustration I felt at the time ;-)
The thing that differentiates Umbraco, and makes it so flexible, is the fact that it doesn't come with any built in modules. In this regard Umbraco is more of a framework rather than a CMS. I personally wouldn't want it to come with any built-in ones at all. (Optional - fine - but not built in).
The trouble with module based CMS's is that they are quick to get started with, but once you want to do something "outside the box" they quickly become a real pain. This is because they invariably generated fixed mark-up that is difficult to edit and style - with the result they all look very similar (see Wordpress) or they generate horrendous ammounts of untidy code (see Joomla). I've worked with quite a few different CMS's, and even written one, and believe me I prefer Umbraco over the lot.
With Umbraco you can take a design and "bring it to life" without worrying that the News/Events/whatever module of the CMS can't output the HTML that the client expects based on the design they signed-off. Umbraco lets you literally do anything, without contraint. I remember struggling with other CMS's with "out-of-the-box" functionality when the client has said, "Can you add another field to the Event calendar" and suddenly you are hacking away at databases deseperately trying to customise it.
The thing is, once you get to know the basics of Umbraco you can build complex sites very quickly without needing to rely on any packages. The last three Umbraco sites I've built (including one for an international Media group that is very complex) haven't used any 3rd party packages - things like News, listings, RSS, Events, jQuery sliders, galleries etc, can be knocked up in minutes once you've done them a few times. I think it's more important to understand the basics of Umbraco as a framework, rather than trying to treat it like someting where you just throw a few packages together and hope they all work.
And don't forget, once you've developed your own "modules" you can package these up and re-use them in future sites. This, to my mind, gives you the best of both worlds - you don't need to start from scratch every time - you just create your own "library" of tools that you can tailor how you see fit.
I do, however, think you have a valid point about package conflicts and the way some don't play together. It can be a pain. Better conflict checking, the ability to change DocType and Master DocType after creation, more standardised starter kits etc. would all help. But I think it's often better to spend the time learning the core rather than trying to shoe-horn other peoples' packages into what you want.
I'd just like to add that it indeed can be frustrating that different packages can potentially interfere with each other. The best thing you can do when you see this kind of thing is to write a post on our about it so the package creator gets notified and hopefully he is willing to solve the issue and perhaps collaborate with other package creators, which may have conclicting packages to get the issue solved.
I know that in some cases this scenario is unfortunately not possible but those with the greatest packages are often the most dedicated and loyal Umbraco users who really wants to make sure people have a good experience using their package and Umbraco.
Is Umbraco TOO Open and too flexible?
I am beginning to think that Umbraco is too free form or unstructured or something... it's really confusing working with many packages... everything works in it's own way and it seems like every project is like starting from scratch... Comparing it to something like, say, Wordpress where a base functionality is available right out of the box, no need to install any packages or anything.
I totally get the idea that Umbraco offers unlimited flexibility, but with that comes apparently unlimited complexity. Packages aren't guaranteed not to interfere with one another and often do. It's sometimes impossible to uninstall them. Learning to use a custom datatype can be a real pain. On and on...
I don't want to be negative, I am just wondering if maybe we DO in fact need more functionality baked into the core of Umbraco including some basic modules... blog, events, news, etc... NO templates per se, but a basic set of document types, datatypes and macros that get a site rolling. The provided starter kits are "ok", but really aren't that amazing and do TOO much in terms of installing their own CSS and templates...
I am finding myself spending too much time building basics. If I install a blog package, problems always seem to crop up, it takes over the site, or isn't clear how to integrate with what I've already built.
Who else relates to what I'm saying and what can we do about it if anything?
Hi Robert
I have been using Umbraco for 2 years now and personally I absolutely love the product.
I hear what you are saying and yes you do seem to spend time doing the same tasks for each new site. I too have exerienced the frustration of installing a package and things aren't as you want them in terms of css, templates, document types, etc.
Whilst I haven't had the time to do it myself, a good idea to develop a base site the way you want it with core packages installed and playing nicely together, with a template structure that you want, with a document type structure that you want, etc, etc.
Then you could create a package from that site and install the package each time you start a new site. If a new site doesn't require some funcitonality you can then simply delete the document types, templates, related css, etc.
Just in the past 2 weeks I tried creating a package for the first time. It was a fun exercise, the interface is good, but you do need to think through things.
I probably created and installed the package 20 - 30 times during the process - there were things I didn't think through properly and so had to rebuild it often!
It was however a good learning curve and one I enjoyed - or is that just my memory blocking out the frustration I felt at the time ;-)
Cheers
Nigel
The thing that differentiates Umbraco, and makes it so flexible, is the fact that it doesn't come with any built in modules. In this regard Umbraco is more of a framework rather than a CMS. I personally wouldn't want it to come with any built-in ones at all. (Optional - fine - but not built in).
The trouble with module based CMS's is that they are quick to get started with, but once you want to do something "outside the box" they quickly become a real pain. This is because they invariably generated fixed mark-up that is difficult to edit and style - with the result they all look very similar (see Wordpress) or they generate horrendous ammounts of untidy code (see Joomla). I've worked with quite a few different CMS's, and even written one, and believe me I prefer Umbraco over the lot.
With Umbraco you can take a design and "bring it to life" without worrying that the News/Events/whatever module of the CMS can't output the HTML that the client expects based on the design they signed-off. Umbraco lets you literally do anything, without contraint. I remember struggling with other CMS's with "out-of-the-box" functionality when the client has said, "Can you add another field to the Event calendar" and suddenly you are hacking away at databases deseperately trying to customise it.
The thing is, once you get to know the basics of Umbraco you can build complex sites very quickly without needing to rely on any packages. The last three Umbraco sites I've built (including one for an international Media group that is very complex) haven't used any 3rd party packages - things like News, listings, RSS, Events, jQuery sliders, galleries etc, can be knocked up in minutes once you've done them a few times. I think it's more important to understand the basics of Umbraco as a framework, rather than trying to treat it like someting where you just throw a few packages together and hope they all work.
And don't forget, once you've developed your own "modules" you can package these up and re-use them in future sites. This, to my mind, gives you the best of both worlds - you don't need to start from scratch every time - you just create your own "library" of tools that you can tailor how you see fit.
I do, however, think you have a valid point about package conflicts and the way some don't play together. It can be a pain. Better conflict checking, the ability to change DocType and Master DocType after creation, more standardised starter kits etc. would all help. But I think it's often better to spend the time learning the core rather than trying to shoe-horn other peoples' packages into what you want.
Well said guys.
I'd just like to add that it indeed can be frustrating that different packages can potentially interfere with each other. The best thing you can do when you see this kind of thing is to write a post on our about it so the package creator gets notified and hopefully he is willing to solve the issue and perhaps collaborate with other package creators, which may have conclicting packages to get the issue solved.
I know that in some cases this scenario is unfortunately not possible but those with the greatest packages are often the most dedicated and loyal Umbraco users who really wants to make sure people have a good experience using their package and Umbraco.
/Jan
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