Something that I am confused time and time again is the voting system on the forum. Originally it seemed that people were getting karma from voting, but now it seems like the bulk of karma comes from posting. Sometimes posts get 100 'points' from being accepted as the correct answer and sometimes they done.
One of my major concerns (or confusions) is the number of posts which are accepted as correct but are never up-voted. In fact I've seen posts which have an accepted answer but several higher voted answers. Coming from StackOverflow I see voting differently to how it seems to be treated on this forum. On StackOverflow voting is used to indicate the communities feeling regarding a post or an answer. True that they have a larger volume of users through each post, but when ever I come across an answer which is a) well through out, b) correct, c) useful I'll vote for it. It seems only fair that people have spent their time helping that they get a 'tip of a hat' for their effort.
Does anyone find the concept of up-voting under utilized on this forum?
Then on the flip side I am just as baffled by down-voting. I remember there was an incident a while ago which there was a lot of anger and aggressive down-voting, which then resulted in the justification box, but I've found this to be too aggressive an approach. Again comparing to StackOverflow down-voting is a good way to 'warn' others of a question/ answer which is missing the point or 'wrong' (I use that loosely, maybe miss-guided would be just as appropriate). I've come across answers which wouldn't be useful for someone with the same problem and thinking that down-voting would help steer people to the appropriate responses, but to then have to write a justification (yes, I know it's not exactly a long justification) seems silly. If something's not useful, it's not useful.
I'm not saying I have the answers, but I see that a site with voting should be using voting as a way to funnel users towards what's useful for them, rather than skimming a number of posts before the problem is solved.
*Notes:
Keep in mind that the comparison between StackOverflow and the Umbraco forum isn't *that* viable, StackOverflow has an entirely different level of traffic, and it's also a pure Q/A site, where as this is more of a traditional discussion forum.
Also, I would appreciate the irony of this post being up/ down voted :P.
I completely agree with you Aaron. There definite confusions with the voting. Recently I've seen the active members using the up-vote more regular, which in-turn will encourage other members to do the same. But with the down-vote, I think it scares the crap out of us - in terms unknowns.
I know with myself, if I see a post that I feel doesn't really contribute towards the solution, or is misleading (in the context of the original question), then I'm tempted to down-vote ... but then moral/karma kicks in ... "will they take it as a personal attack?" "will my karma points be effected?" "who am I to judge?"
The only time I see down-voting actively happening is when a new project is added with no content (i.e. no downloads and crap description). I guess this is due to the lack of effort is very apparent. Although I do think that if a more popular member of the community were to create a new empty project (with no downloads), then there wouldn't be much down-voting (a few moans on twitter, but that's about it).
Whilst writing this, it occurs to me that it is all about effort. If someone takes the time to reply to a forum post - but their answer is wrong/bad/misleading - they've still taken the effort to do so ... in which the Umbraco community is at the stage where we are trying to encourage participation (not turn people away - remember we're "the friendly CMS" community!) On the flip-side if we see a complete lack of effort, then we let them know.
The same goes for the Wiki. If someone has taken the effort to create a page/content - then who's going to down-vote it? ... and then if they do, the answers is always ... "if you think it needs to be improved? why don't you improve it?" (aka "share your shit!")
As you say, StackOverflow is a different beast. General/generic questions which often have standard/generic/specific answers - so enable the voting up/down culture. Whereas on Our Umbraco, it is used as a support forum - specific questions that apply to a user's problem domain, and the answer (majority of the time) only applies to that user's problem. (OK I still see a LOT of XSLT/GetMedia posts!!!)
Right, I've rambled on enough now! Any other thoughts?
if a 'more popular' community member posted an empty project with a lame description, i would down vote it for sure :) they should know better.
I think the karma system, in virtually any form is a perfect illustration of concept of community. We all [or most of us] want to do the right thing, but often times it is easiest to sit on the sidelines and 'not get too involved' it is just human/community nature. The community members that participate the most, are most likely the ones that vote as well..
also, i think there may be a large perecentage of users that utilize this location for reference and not necissarily a two way interaction... if they vote, they come out of the shadows and into the light... sure that would be awesome -- but i am not sure how realistic that is.
i wonder, maybe that is the true nature of the challenge... not to get people voting... but maybe to bring more members out of the shadows first.
if i was having this conversation with a client, i would be asking what the real challenge is... what if we focus efforts on step one first, then expand the mission to encourage more two way interactions with this wonderful community?
perhaps a campaign after the birthday celebrations to introduce yourself... a welcome forum of sorts... and encourage a karma boost for posting in the introductions forum... then, if we have somebody appointed as the forum 'goodwill embassador' they reach out to members that have introduced themseelves and encourage more active participation????
upvoting: we still haven't found the "best" method to reward, altho lots of efforts have been put in this already. For example, people who like posts/solution and reward this with a upvote, may get karma themselves.
On a personal note, I only upvote solutions which I think may be useful to both the original poster and myself (Yes, I do still learn from forum experience). Doens't really have to do with rewarding someone to ask questions, to share knowledge with others, I just reward those who give great answers which help both the original poster and myself!
Also, In the past, we've found some people to "misuse" this feature to collect loads of karma, which is certainly not intended behaviour, therefore umbraco hq has done some mods to disencourage this behaviour, which seems to have worked fine.
I think Bob has a point when talking about getting members to step out of the shadow... it still doesn't work, it's seems really hard to motivate people to participate more actively. It seems as people nowadays need more rewarding then just being "umbraco community member of the month"....
downvoting: always been a point of discussion, and personally, never do downvoting unless for the project section that may have an empty project or has been created "for testing purposes" only. I've never been a fan of disencouragement, and it seems people take it that way when you downvote.
I've once suggested to remove the downvoting and replace it by "mark as spam" as this clearly states why you don't like a post/project. Anyone up for such a change?
More encouragement, less discouragement... remove down-vote from forums, replacing it with 'mark as spam' ... all sounds good to me!!!
With the stepping out of the shadows point - there'll always be the 80/20 rule ... BUT I have seen a few member who we've helped recently coming back to help others - which is great, makes it all worthwhile!
URL Rewriting is a better way, as it happens a lot earlier in the page life cycle and already has all the functionality put in place to do it. But because there is an accepted solution people aren't likely to see it. And judging from the community vote its the accepted way. But people aren't going to see it because a) it's on the 2nd page and b) there's an accepted solution.
So how would you 'direct' people to the voted answer (or should you even do it)?
PS - I'm not picking on this post/ solution, it's just a good example of the point I'm trying to make.
I think the forum would be a lot cleaner if there was ability to edit posts. At the very least be able to edit your own input, but preferably be able to have moderators edit the forum and choose the "accepted solution" where it is appropriate (especially pointing back to the post that Slace mentions above). I don't think there is anything wrong with changing your mind at a later time. The problem becomes who should get the Karma. In this case, it would make sense - at least to me - that the orignal answer gets the Karma as it was a solution that the original poster went with (or at least had some use of). It's almost like there should be a "best practice" indicator that only a few on the forum would be able to do (Core, Admin, and potentially MVPs). In that same vein, I could see a new view on Our where people could go to see best practice solutions to common problems that devs face.
Perhaps all this requires too much work from a small number of people, but I think conceptually it would work. But I agree, downvoting doesn't really have a place in the forum posts but DOES in the package repo for example.
This is an interesting discussion and the compariosions with Stackoverflow, although as Aaron points out not 100% relevant, reveal some interesting questions.
Duplication of questions, this is common on our and increases the noise to signal ratio. A case for downvoting? I'd say no, more of a case for marking as duplicate and pointing users to the correct post. However this again reveals another issue, what if the advice changes over time new versions of Umbraco for instance. Perhaps there should be a way of promoting an thread or post as a wiki article.
Down voting plain wrong information. This is certainly a case for the downvote, however the downvote is effectively a punishment and should be used sparingly. Unless the currency value of a downvote can be changed i.e. not particularly punitive, no snarky reasons. Just a way of ordering answers.
Encouraging upvotes and accepted answers. To encourage upvoting and accepted answer status there needs to be a reason to do it. Perhaps a small Karma reward for accepting an answer. Stackoverflow uses badges in this respect to very good effect. Also accepted answer works well of SO because it marks an answer as canonical. But doesn't stop a heavily up-voted answer from floating to the top. Perhaps ordering by Karma should be the default, in order to make it more obvious that it is key. At the moment Karma although useful feels a little like it's a bolt on.
Preventing Spam. Down voting and Karma is not the place for this. A simple flag marking it as spam or offensive or whatever so it can be flagged for a moderator to review and delete would be best. This delineation will keep the reason for Karma slightly more pure.
I'll admit I'm generally a lurker. But its partially because there's not a lot of questions that need to be answered. Everyone is on top of things around here generally it seems (good job community!). However, as someone with less than 70 karma I can't up vote even if I wanted to (which I have tried). So that means any answers I think are good, don't get my feedback.
Another note: On StackOverflow they have "unanswered questions" which would be a cool way for people like me to find a place that maybe I could help out. Perhaps it would encourage people to pick the "answer" to get it of the unanswered area.
There are also comments on replies in SO which appear right below the answer. That enables people to explain why they downvoted something. It could allow an old answer to have some comments directing people to a better answer.
Lastly, could we get a better search for our.umbraco.org? I think that may contribute to the duplicate posting. Its kinda hard to find information in the Our Umbraco site. The projects, wikis, and forums all mix together and are on separate tabs. I would prefer to search separately for each. The paging is very confusing as well. Currently, I just use Google to search for solutions when I have Umbraco quesitons. Or I post to the forum, then to twitter. Anyone else have problems navigating the search?
Just my thoughts from a relatively new Umbraco guy.
Søren and Lasse are very well respected amongst the Umbraco community, but no-one has said anything about the project page having no description, nor downloads, nor links ... and that it's a commercial package (Our Umbraco projects are intended to be non-commercial - or so I'm lead to believe).
Quick disclaimer: I have no problem with the uCommerce package - I've seen the demo, it looks awesome!
Just curious what other community members think about this.
I saw this Project had been created and I thought maybe it was blank because they were in the process of uploading, but 48 hours later there is still nothing in the project.
I think thou, rather than down voting, Projects should not be able to be actually live until certain criteria are met, i.e. A detailed description of more than X characters and at least one download link.
Myself and John ended up talking about this system last night.
To me the most fundamental issue is you can't vote until you reach a threshold level. If we want to encourage people to use the voting tools, then really we have to allow our newest members to use them.
These users are new to Umbraco, they are in there initial learning cycle and we need to umbrace them into the community.
Even for me I found it quite annoying I couldn't up vote things until a few months ago.
-
I am of the view that down voting is really not a good thing and I would not ever down vote anything.
If you like something, give it a thumbs up, if your indifferent don't. This encourages high volumes of + voting and works as a great filter.
I always go on about this site, but for me a great example of how a plus (or in this case hype) system can work really effectivly.
I'd quite like to see a thread post by hype filter, would be a great way of seeing what people are exicted about. As well as a new post/low hype filter to spot the latest conversations.
-
I have experience the next issue I'm going to mention but its something John said has been affecting his account and this is the filtering of posts under a certain karma level. Why would we want to do this?
@Lee Kelleher I'm impressed that you spotted uCommerce so quickly. By no means that i mean to leave it blank, but an error on Our caused it to not be linked to my profile so I was unable to edit it after I created it initially.
With regards to commercial packages a recent policy change from HQ means that commercial packages are now welcome on Our provided they live up to the following criteria: "namely providing a free or open-source version of your product (a trial version will also comply)", quoting Paul here :)
Once we get the package linked to my profile I'll definitely make sure that the package page is up to date for uCommerce. It's in everybody's interest I think :)
The project-2-member link bug explains it all. I was curious why you'd left the project blank for so long - seemed out of character. Hopefully the Our Umbraco admins will resolve this promptly.
I'd suggest that they delete the current project stub and you create a new one ... or if the admins can remove the down-votes? (-2 at the time of posting) - so you can start with a clean slate! :-)
Also, wasn't aware of the policy change to list commercial (with trial) packages here too!
FWIW as I have only just started on the forum I can't vote answers.
The Message I get is:
"You cannot vote yet
You need at least 70 karma points to be able to rate items on our.umbraco.org
You
gain karma points every time you do something constructive, like
answering topics on the forum, or starting new ones or publishing your
work as a project"
Might help clear up how Karma is contributing. (Seems like it's in everything you do!)
Voting
Something that I am confused time and time again is the voting system on the forum. Originally it seemed that people were getting karma from voting, but now it seems like the bulk of karma comes from posting. Sometimes posts get 100 'points' from being accepted as the correct answer and sometimes they done.
One of my major concerns (or confusions) is the number of posts which are accepted as correct but are never up-voted. In fact I've seen posts which have an accepted answer but several higher voted answers.
Coming from StackOverflow I see voting differently to how it seems to be treated on this forum. On StackOverflow voting is used to indicate the communities feeling regarding a post or an answer. True that they have a larger volume of users through each post, but when ever I come across an answer which is a) well through out, b) correct, c) useful I'll vote for it. It seems only fair that people have spent their time helping that they get a 'tip of a hat' for their effort.
Does anyone find the concept of up-voting under utilized on this forum?
Then on the flip side I am just as baffled by down-voting. I remember there was an incident a while ago which there was a lot of anger and aggressive down-voting, which then resulted in the justification box, but I've found this to be too aggressive an approach. Again comparing to StackOverflow down-voting is a good way to 'warn' others of a question/ answer which is missing the point or 'wrong' (I use that loosely, maybe miss-guided would be just as appropriate).
I've come across answers which wouldn't be useful for someone with the same problem and thinking that down-voting would help steer people to the appropriate responses, but to then have to write a justification (yes, I know it's not exactly a long justification) seems silly. If something's not useful, it's not useful.
I'm not saying I have the answers, but I see that a site with voting should be using voting as a way to funnel users towards what's useful for them, rather than skimming a number of posts before the problem is solved.
*Notes:
Keep in mind that the comparison between StackOverflow and the Umbraco forum isn't *that* viable, StackOverflow has an entirely different level of traffic, and it's also a pure Q/A site, where as this is more of a traditional discussion forum.
Also, I would appreciate the irony of this post being up/ down voted :P.
I completely agree with you Aaron. There definite confusions with the voting. Recently I've seen the active members using the up-vote more regular, which in-turn will encourage other members to do the same. But with the down-vote, I think it scares the crap out of us - in terms unknowns.
I know with myself, if I see a post that I feel doesn't really contribute towards the solution, or is misleading (in the context of the original question), then I'm tempted to down-vote ... but then moral/karma kicks in ... "will they take it as a personal attack?" "will my karma points be effected?" "who am I to judge?"
The only time I see down-voting actively happening is when a new project is added with no content (i.e. no downloads and crap description). I guess this is due to the lack of effort is very apparent. Although I do think that if a more popular member of the community were to create a new empty project (with no downloads), then there wouldn't be much down-voting (a few moans on twitter, but that's about it).
Whilst writing this, it occurs to me that it is all about effort. If someone takes the time to reply to a forum post - but their answer is wrong/bad/misleading - they've still taken the effort to do so ... in which the Umbraco community is at the stage where we are trying to encourage participation (not turn people away - remember we're "the friendly CMS" community!) On the flip-side if we see a complete lack of effort, then we let them know.
The same goes for the Wiki. If someone has taken the effort to create a page/content - then who's going to down-vote it? ... and then if they do, the answers is always ... "if you think it needs to be improved? why don't you improve it?" (aka "share your shit!")
As you say, StackOverflow is a different beast. General/generic questions which often have standard/generic/specific answers - so enable the voting up/down culture. Whereas on Our Umbraco, it is used as a support forum - specific questions that apply to a user's problem domain, and the answer (majority of the time) only applies to that user's problem. (OK I still see a LOT of XSLT/GetMedia posts!!!)
Right, I've rambled on enough now! Any other thoughts?
Muchos amor, Lee.
if a 'more popular' community member posted an empty project with a lame description, i would down vote it for sure :) they should know better.
I think the karma system, in virtually any form is a perfect illustration of concept of community. We all [or most of us] want to do the right thing, but often times it is easiest to sit on the sidelines and 'not get too involved' it is just human/community nature. The community members that participate the most, are most likely the ones that vote as well..
also, i think there may be a large perecentage of users that utilize this location for reference and not necissarily a two way interaction... if they vote, they come out of the shadows and into the light... sure that would be awesome -- but i am not sure how realistic that is.
i wonder, maybe that is the true nature of the challenge... not to get people voting... but maybe to bring more members out of the shadows first.
if i was having this conversation with a client, i would be asking what the real challenge is... what if we focus efforts on step one first, then expand the mission to encourage more two way interactions with this wonderful community?
perhaps a campaign after the birthday celebrations to introduce yourself... a welcome forum of sorts... and encourage a karma boost for posting in the introductions forum... then, if we have somebody appointed as the forum 'goodwill embassador' they reach out to members that have introduced themseelves and encourage more active participation????
any up vote or down votes on such an idea?
hi all,
just my 2 cents and some background info...
upvoting: we still haven't found the "best" method to reward, altho lots of efforts have been put in this already. For example, people who like posts/solution and reward this with a upvote, may get karma themselves.
On a personal note, I only upvote solutions which I think may be useful to both the original poster and myself (Yes, I do still learn from forum experience). Doens't really have to do with rewarding someone to ask questions, to share knowledge with others, I just reward those who give great answers which help both the original poster and myself!
Also, In the past, we've found some people to "misuse" this feature to collect loads of karma, which is certainly not intended behaviour, therefore umbraco hq has done some mods to disencourage this behaviour, which seems to have worked fine.
I think Bob has a point when talking about getting members to step out of the shadow... it still doesn't work, it's seems really hard to motivate people to participate more actively. It seems as people nowadays need more rewarding then just being "umbraco community member of the month"....
downvoting: always been a point of discussion, and personally, never do downvoting unless for the project section that may have an empty project or has been created "for testing purposes" only. I've never been a fan of disencouragement, and it seems people take it that way when you downvote.
I've once suggested to remove the downvoting and replace it by "mark as spam" as this clearly states why you don't like a post/project. Anyone up for such a change?
Cheers,
/Dirk
More encouragement, less discouragement... remove down-vote from forums, replacing it with 'mark as spam' ... all sounds good to me!!!
With the stepping out of the shadows point - there'll always be the 80/20 rule ... BUT I have seen a few member who we've helped recently coming back to help others - which is great, makes it all worthwhile!
Cheers, Lee.
See I disagree, I think that down-voting has a place. Take this post for example:
http://our.umbraco.org/forum/core/general/7216-Force-www-in-URL
The accepted solution is this:
http://our.umbraco.org/forum/core/general/7216-Force-www-in-URL?p=0#comment26380
Personally I don't think it's a good solution, and I'd prefer people go to Morten solution:
http://our.umbraco.org/forum/core/general/7216-Force-www-in-URL?p=1#comment26415
URL Rewriting is a better way, as it happens a lot earlier in the page life cycle and already has all the functionality put in place to do it. But because there is an accepted solution people aren't likely to see it. And judging from the community vote its the accepted way.
But people aren't going to see it because a) it's on the 2nd page and b) there's an accepted solution.
So how would you 'direct' people to the voted answer (or should you even do it)?
PS - I'm not picking on this post/ solution, it's just a good example of the point I'm trying to make.
I think the forum would be a lot cleaner if there was ability to edit posts. At the very least be able to edit your own input, but preferably be able to have moderators edit the forum and choose the "accepted solution" where it is appropriate (especially pointing back to the post that Slace mentions above). I don't think there is anything wrong with changing your mind at a later time. The problem becomes who should get the Karma. In this case, it would make sense - at least to me - that the orignal answer gets the Karma as it was a solution that the original poster went with (or at least had some use of). It's almost like there should be a "best practice" indicator that only a few on the forum would be able to do (Core, Admin, and potentially MVPs). In that same vein, I could see a new view on Our where people could go to see best practice solutions to common problems that devs face.
Perhaps all this requires too much work from a small number of people, but I think conceptually it would work. But I agree, downvoting doesn't really have a place in the forum posts but DOES in the package repo for example.
Cheers.
This is an interesting discussion and the compariosions with Stackoverflow, although as Aaron points out not 100% relevant, reveal some interesting questions.
Duplication of questions, this is common on our and increases the noise to signal ratio. A case for downvoting? I'd say no, more of a case for marking as duplicate and pointing users to the correct post. However this again reveals another issue, what if the advice changes over time new versions of Umbraco for instance. Perhaps there should be a way of promoting an thread or post as a wiki article.
Down voting plain wrong information. This is certainly a case for the downvote, however the downvote is effectively a punishment and should be used sparingly. Unless the currency value of a downvote can be changed i.e. not particularly punitive, no snarky reasons. Just a way of ordering answers.
Encouraging upvotes and accepted answers. To encourage upvoting and accepted answer status there needs to be a reason to do it. Perhaps a small Karma reward for accepting an answer. Stackoverflow uses badges in this respect to very good effect. Also accepted answer works well of SO because it marks an answer as canonical. But doesn't stop a heavily up-voted answer from floating to the top. Perhaps ordering by Karma should be the default, in order to make it more obvious that it is key. At the moment Karma although useful feels a little like it's a bolt on.
Preventing Spam. Down voting and Karma is not the place for this. A simple flag marking it as spam or offensive or whatever so it can be flagged for a moderator to review and delete would be best. This delineation will keep the reason for Karma slightly more pure.
T
I'll admit I'm generally a lurker. But its partially because there's not a lot of questions that need to be answered. Everyone is on top of things around here generally it seems (good job community!). However, as someone with less than 70 karma I can't up vote even if I wanted to (which I have tried). So that means any answers I think are good, don't get my feedback.
Another note: On StackOverflow they have "unanswered questions" which would be a cool way for people like me to find a place that maybe I could help out. Perhaps it would encourage people to pick the "answer" to get it of the unanswered area.
There are also comments on replies in SO which appear right below the answer. That enables people to explain why they downvoted something. It could allow an old answer to have some comments directing people to a better answer.
Lastly, could we get a better search for our.umbraco.org? I think that may contribute to the duplicate posting. Its kinda hard to find information in the Our Umbraco site. The projects, wikis, and forums all mix together and are on separate tabs. I would prefer to search separately for each. The paging is very confusing as well. Currently, I just use Google to search for solutions when I have Umbraco quesitons. Or I post to the forum, then to twitter. Anyone else have problems navigating the search?
Just my thoughts from a relatively new Umbraco guy.
To prove a point about the down-voting for empty projects from well-known Umbraco developers.
uCommerce has been added recently.
http://our.umbraco.org/projects/ucommerce
Søren and Lasse are very well respected amongst the Umbraco community, but no-one has said anything about the project page having no description, nor downloads, nor links ... and that it's a commercial package (Our Umbraco projects are intended to be non-commercial - or so I'm lead to believe).
Quick disclaimer: I have no problem with the uCommerce package - I've seen the demo, it looks awesome!
Just curious what other community members think about this.
Cheers, Lee.
I agree with Lee,
I saw this Project had been created and I thought maybe it was blank because they were in the process of uploading, but 48 hours later there is still nothing in the project.
I think thou, rather than down voting, Projects should not be able to be actually live until certain criteria are met, i.e. A detailed description of more than X characters and at least one download link.
Your thoughts?
Chris
Myself and John ended up talking about this system last night.
To me the most fundamental issue is you can't vote until you reach a threshold level. If we want to encourage people to use the voting tools, then really we have to allow our newest members to use them.
These users are new to Umbraco, they are in there initial learning cycle and we need to umbrace them into the community.
Even for me I found it quite annoying I couldn't up vote things until a few months ago.
-
I am of the view that down voting is really not a good thing and I would not ever down vote anything.
If you like something, give it a thumbs up, if your indifferent don't. This encourages high volumes of + voting and works as a great filter.
I always go on about this site, but for me a great example of how a plus (or in this case hype) system can work really effectivly.
http://lookbook.nu/
I'd quite like to see a thread post by hype filter, would be a great way of seeing what people are exicted about. As well as a new post/low hype filter to spot the latest conversations.
-
I have experience the next issue I'm going to mention but its something John said has been affecting his account and this is the filtering of posts under a certain karma level. Why would we want to do this?
/L
@Lee Kelleher I'm impressed that you spotted uCommerce so quickly. By no means that i mean to leave it blank, but an error on Our caused it to not be linked to my profile so I was unable to edit it after I created it initially.
With regards to commercial packages a recent policy change from HQ means that commercial packages are now welcome on Our provided they live up to the following criteria: "namely providing a free or open-source version of your product (a trial version will also comply)", quoting Paul here :)
Once we get the package linked to my profile I'll definitely make sure that the package page is up to date for uCommerce. It's in everybody's interest I think :)
Hi Søren,
The project-2-member link bug explains it all. I was curious why you'd left the project blank for so long - seemed out of character. Hopefully the Our Umbraco admins will resolve this promptly.
I'd suggest that they delete the current project stub and you create a new one ... or if the admins can remove the down-votes? (-2 at the time of posting) - so you can start with a clean slate! :-)
Also, wasn't aware of the policy change to list commercial (with trial) packages here too!
Cheers, Lee.
FWIW as I have only just started on the forum I can't vote answers.
The Message I get is:
"You cannot vote yet
You need at least 70 karma points to be able to rate items on our.umbraco.org
You gain karma points every time you do something constructive, like answering topics on the forum, or starting new ones or publishing your work as a project"
Might help clear up how Karma is contributing. (Seems like it's in everything you do!)
Guys, now that we've sorted out the project could you please up vote us? (only if you like the project though :))
http://our.umbraco.org/projects/ucommerce
is working on a reply...