I thought i would post a brief few comments on my first impressions of Umbraco if you are interested. this is not meant to be a negative post, but an objective view through the eyes of a guy who has experience with DNN and is looking for a better managed and more consistent CMS. my experience has to be worth something, so here it is.
introduction
i have been very excited to download and install a few CMS systems lately. i have good experience in managing, maintaining, deploying and configuring DNN over the past 4 years but have realised that the project seems a bit too big for itself nowadays. the documentation is weak, they still use the same docs from version 3 and they have hardly updated them to be relevant with the new versions, projects have been untouched for years, the store is hopeless, the menu system skinning a giant joke, the official website is slow, the forums even slower... etc etc. nonetheless i have been able to write controls, have deployed hundreds of portals and for the most part the system has worked and my portals have been reasonably fast.
i thought there must be something better, or even still, something with less 'features' that is more stable and green enough that the system is still in control and hasnt grown into obesity. i recently built a nopcommerce website. i have to say i still have have a fuzzy feeling and the taste left in my mouth is so pleasant because of how easy it was to work with. it all just made complete sense from start to finish and i barely had to visit the forums, which unfortunately is the only slight letdown of the project. unfortunately nopcommerce is not a CMS so the search continued.
i came across mojoportal but was disappointed by the speed. it downloads all its ajax and javascript from external websites which really slows the page load process. its backend was also ugly and didnt appear intuative.
first impressions
next i tried umbraco. when i first visited the website i went on a deep exploration to try and find a 'feature list' of all the things that umbraco can do. i still havent found it. i realise the marketing strategy might be to rather give a broader idea of what umbraco can do but i just wanted to see features that come out of the box. i wanted to know if i could control the URL of the pages (urlrewriting), if it came with a forum or a store module, if it had a stat reporter etc.
next i thought id just download it and see what it could do by interacting with it. i couldnt find a download link! i realise now that its on the homepage but then i was stuck in the middle of the website with only a tab list across the top that i assumed to be my only menu options. under none of these menu items did i find the download link until i went to google and found the download URL.
once downloaded the install was a breeze, after 10 mins i had the install scripts running and i was well into the install wizard. at the end of the wizard the backoffice tool popped up and the mind began to boggle. in the background my umbraco site displayed a blank page so my first job was to find the list of pages and edit the default content on the home page of which there was none. as you can imagine i then realise this is nothing like all the other CMS systems i have used. in fact its nothing like any of the CMS systems that anyone has used.
back to the website i go. i find the getting started information has loads of text on how to install and get running but i had already managed that. i was looking for the 'hello world' website tutorial to give me a basic understanding of how to add a page and put text on it. the information seemed to go straight from installation to working with action handling. in between there was what appeared to be a journal of someone who tried but failed to convert a website to Umbraco which i thought to be strange. nonetheless i dug further.
putting all the information on version 3 and the random documents named 'test' and '(1)' aside i stumbled across a link to our.umbraco.org. at this point i was desperate. i had tried to understand what umbraco was about but nothing could point me in the right direction. maybe something like "generally CMS systems like DNN do it this way, but Umbraco does it this way" would have helped. i couldnt work out even the simplest of tasks like how to add a page, or put some text on the home page.
on my visit at the wiki i found the how-to's section. i saw a tut on document types so i took a look but it still didnt tell me how to do anything. i clicked a few more links and some articles were empty or not yet finished.
seriously all i want to find is a document that helps someone who is familiar with a regular CMS from top to bottom and shows how Umbraco differs and why. what are the key ideas behind umbraco and whats the easiest way to relate current knowledge to this system.
i am still lost as to what i am supposed to do next. i have a blank page and dont even know how to get back to the backoffice tool to do more playing around. i am not ready to give up yet because this CMS looks good. im sure its something simple that i am missing.
i hope this post generates some helpful responses for me and possibly may help the admins understand what it is that potential convertee's are looking for. simple things like making the download link easier to find, updating the documentation and adding a 'my first umbraco site' document or perhaps even an 'umbraco for convertees' document.
Really appreciate you've taken the time to write down your first experiences. I don't think we can disagree on the documentation part and the like, it's quite hard for people to find relevant info. I've had clients complaining about exactly the same thing, they just don't find the exact info they're after.
Luckily, you've found this forum which you'll find particularly useful, as there's a whole community that is willing to help you out on almost any issue umbraco related.
With that said, I'd strongly suggest to download and install Warren's Creative Website Starter from the online repository. you'll get a complete basic website to explore and learn the building blocks such as document types, templates, macro's... As you've got previous experience with cms, I'm quite sure you'll get familiar with the system pretty fast.
Starter package can be installed trough the developer section, expand the packages tree, expand the umbraco package repository and click the Starter Kits node. Install Creative Website Starter 2.0.2 from there. Also, more info to be found at http://our.umbraco.org/projects/creative-website-starter-(cws)
Also, umbraco.tv is a great resource for people who're really serious about umbraco development.
On a last note: welcome to umbraco and good luck (And do post any questions you have!)
I'd have to agree with most of what Quintin says, Umbraco as a product is
way better than it's supporting site and the split with our.umbraco.org is vague.
The only obvious link to our.Umbraco.org from the main site is the blog post
about site maintenance and there isn't even a link from our.Umbraco.org back to
the main site!
I'm sure the guys are working on it but I think the whole site needs looking
at through fresh eyes as I wonder how many newbie’s are just being put off.
Also I'd suggest that CWS get's offered at install instead of Runway (if
Warren agreed of course) as it shows off Umbraco way better.
@Quintin give Umbraco a bit more time and install CWS, it’s a fantastic & flexible CMS
and as stated there’s fantastic support on this forum.
A edit/delete facility on this forum would be good too!HINT don't paste directly from Outlook.
I'd have to agree with most of what Quintin says, Umbraco as a product is way better than it's supporting site and the split with our.umbraco.org is vague.
The only obvious link to our.Umbraco.org from the main site is the blog post about site maintenance and there isn't even a link from our.Umbraco.org back to the main site!
I'm sure the guys are working on it but I think the whole site needs looking at through fresh eyes as I wonder how many newbie’s are just being put off.
Also I'd suggest that CWS get's offered at install instead of Runway (if Warren agreed of course) as it shows off Umbraco way better.
@Quintin give Umbraco a bit more time and install CWS, it’s a fantastic & flexible CMS and as stated there’s fantastic support on this forum.
Great feedback - thank you for taking the time. It's a big help as you don't experience those frustrations as a veteran/project owner.
A feature list for Umbraco is *really* hard as it's very different from a module based CMS, but maybe we should just start one in the WIKI and people could start adding the features that they find relevant to it. Often feature lists focus on module (Forum, News listings, shop, etc), rather than focusing on the functionality of the CMS (user/roles, versioning, integration capabilities, etc). I don't know where to start on this, but I think this could be something where the community could help a lot (also based on the RFPs they get).
I also agree that the main website needs an overhaul. We're in a vacum right now where we're trying to move the documentation part of the site to Our and also integrate the two sites better. At the same time we're planning a complete redesign of umbraco.org by the end of the year, which is why we're shelving the process a bit (it's also *much* more time consuming than people think and we're a little startup with limited resources).
@Rich G: CWS and Runway are two very different things and while CWS is superb when coming to evaluate and demo Umbraco, the idea with Runway is that it can become a foundation for more than a demo, but an actual site. It's also been designed for extensibility and hopefully it'll bloom soon as we add designs and more modules to it.
the fact that my post was met with such acceptance shows you have a good product and a cool community. I suppose its good to hear that im not the only one that has had these issues, i had a feeling i might get a post back telling me that i missed the big red button at the top of the page or something simple like that.
i'll take a look at the starter kit and see if it helps me understand Umbraco's way. as i said i havent given up, just need to find something good to play with that will help me get moving on a site. from there i can write controls and extensions.
newbie totally confused
I thought i would post a brief few comments on my first impressions of Umbraco if you are interested. this is not meant to be a negative post, but an objective view through the eyes of a guy who has experience with DNN and is looking for a better managed and more consistent CMS. my experience has to be worth something, so here it is.
introduction
i have been very excited to download and install a few CMS systems lately. i have good experience in managing, maintaining, deploying and configuring DNN over the past 4 years but have realised that the project seems a bit too big for itself nowadays. the documentation is weak, they still use the same docs from version 3 and they have hardly updated them to be relevant with the new versions, projects have been untouched for years, the store is hopeless, the menu system skinning a giant joke, the official website is slow, the forums even slower... etc etc. nonetheless i have been able to write controls, have deployed hundreds of portals and for the most part the system has worked and my portals have been reasonably fast.
i thought there must be something better, or even still, something with less 'features' that is more stable and green enough that the system is still in control and hasnt grown into obesity. i recently built a nopcommerce website. i have to say i still have have a fuzzy feeling and the taste left in my mouth is so pleasant because of how easy it was to work with. it all just made complete sense from start to finish and i barely had to visit the forums, which unfortunately is the only slight letdown of the project. unfortunately nopcommerce is not a CMS so the search continued.
i came across mojoportal but was disappointed by the speed. it downloads all its ajax and javascript from external websites which really slows the page load process. its backend was also ugly and didnt appear intuative.
first impressions
next i tried umbraco. when i first visited the website i went on a deep exploration to try and find a 'feature list' of all the things that umbraco can do. i still havent found it. i realise the marketing strategy might be to rather give a broader idea of what umbraco can do but i just wanted to see features that come out of the box. i wanted to know if i could control the URL of the pages (urlrewriting), if it came with a forum or a store module, if it had a stat reporter etc.
next i thought id just download it and see what it could do by interacting with it. i couldnt find a download link! i realise now that its on the homepage but then i was stuck in the middle of the website with only a tab list across the top that i assumed to be my only menu options. under none of these menu items did i find the download link until i went to google and found the download URL.
once downloaded the install was a breeze, after 10 mins i had the install scripts running and i was well into the install wizard. at the end of the wizard the backoffice tool popped up and the mind began to boggle. in the background my umbraco site displayed a blank page so my first job was to find the list of pages and edit the default content on the home page of which there was none. as you can imagine i then realise this is nothing like all the other CMS systems i have used. in fact its nothing like any of the CMS systems that anyone has used.
back to the website i go. i find the getting started information has loads of text on how to install and get running but i had already managed that. i was looking for the 'hello world' website tutorial to give me a basic understanding of how to add a page and put text on it. the information seemed to go straight from installation to working with action handling. in between there was what appeared to be a journal of someone who tried but failed to convert a website to Umbraco which i thought to be strange. nonetheless i dug further.
putting all the information on version 3 and the random documents named 'test' and '(1)' aside i stumbled across a link to our.umbraco.org. at this point i was desperate. i had tried to understand what umbraco was about but nothing could point me in the right direction. maybe something like "generally CMS systems like DNN do it this way, but Umbraco does it this way" would have helped. i couldnt work out even the simplest of tasks like how to add a page, or put some text on the home page.
on my visit at the wiki i found the how-to's section. i saw a tut on document types so i took a look but it still didnt tell me how to do anything. i clicked a few more links and some articles were empty or not yet finished.
seriously all i want to find is a document that helps someone who is familiar with a regular CMS from top to bottom and shows how Umbraco differs and why. what are the key ideas behind umbraco and whats the easiest way to relate current knowledge to this system.
i am still lost as to what i am supposed to do next. i have a blank page and dont even know how to get back to the backoffice tool to do more playing around. i am not ready to give up yet because this CMS looks good. im sure its something simple that i am missing.
i hope this post generates some helpful responses for me and possibly may help the admins understand what it is that potential convertee's are looking for. simple things like making the download link easier to find, updating the documentation and adding a 'my first umbraco site' document or perhaps even an 'umbraco for convertees' document.
thanks for reading.
You should try to install the Creative Website Starter 2.0.2.
If you installed umbraco on http://localhost, use http://localhost/umbraco/umbraco.aspx to get to the control panel.
Chose Developer/Packages/Umbraco package Repository, starter kits.
HTH
Hi Quintin,
Really appreciate you've taken the time to write down your first experiences. I don't think we can disagree on the documentation part and the like, it's quite hard for people to find relevant info. I've had clients complaining about exactly the same thing, they just don't find the exact info they're after.
Luckily, you've found this forum which you'll find particularly useful, as there's a whole community that is willing to help you out on almost any issue umbraco related.
With that said, I'd strongly suggest to download and install Warren's Creative Website Starter from the online repository. you'll get a complete basic website to explore and learn the building blocks such as document types, templates, macro's... As you've got previous experience with cms, I'm quite sure you'll get familiar with the system pretty fast.
Starter package can be installed trough the developer section, expand the packages tree, expand the umbraco package repository and click the Starter Kits node. Install Creative Website Starter 2.0.2 from there. Also, more info to be found at http://our.umbraco.org/projects/creative-website-starter-(cws)
Also, umbraco.tv is a great resource for people who're really serious about umbraco development.
On a last note: welcome to umbraco and good luck (And do post any questions you have!)
Cheers,
/Dirk
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I'd have to agree with most of what Quintin says, Umbraco as a product is way better than it's supporting site and the split with our.umbraco.org is vague.
The only obvious link to our.Umbraco.org from the main site is the blog post about site maintenance and there isn't even a link from our.Umbraco.org back to the main site!
I'm sure the guys are working on it but I think the whole site needs looking at through fresh eyes as I wonder how many newbie’s are just being put off.
Also I'd suggest that CWS get's offered at install instead of Runway (if Warren agreed of course) as it shows off Umbraco way better.
@Quintin give Umbraco a bit more time and install CWS, it’s a fantastic & flexible CMS and as stated there’s fantastic support on this forum.
A edit/delete facility on this forum would be good too! HINT don't paste directly from Outlook.
I'd have to agree with most of what Quintin says, Umbraco as a product is way better than it's supporting site and the split with our.umbraco.org is vague.
The only obvious link to our.Umbraco.org from the main site is the blog post about site maintenance and there isn't even a link from our.Umbraco.org back to the main site!
I'm sure the guys are working on it but I think the whole site needs looking at through fresh eyes as I wonder how many newbie’s are just being put off.
Also I'd suggest that CWS get's offered at install instead of Runway (if Warren agreed of course) as it shows off Umbraco way better.
@Quintin give Umbraco a bit more time and install CWS, it’s a fantastic & flexible CMS and as stated there’s fantastic support on this forum.
Great feedback - thank you for taking the time. It's a big help as you don't experience those frustrations as a veteran/project owner.
A feature list for Umbraco is *really* hard as it's very different from a module based CMS, but maybe we should just start one in the WIKI and people could start adding the features that they find relevant to it. Often feature lists focus on module (Forum, News listings, shop, etc), rather than focusing on the functionality of the CMS (user/roles, versioning, integration capabilities, etc). I don't know where to start on this, but I think this could be something where the community could help a lot (also based on the RFPs they get).
I also agree that the main website needs an overhaul. We're in a vacum right now where we're trying to move the documentation part of the site to Our and also integrate the two sites better. At the same time we're planning a complete redesign of umbraco.org by the end of the year, which is why we're shelving the process a bit (it's also *much* more time consuming than people think and we're a little startup with limited resources).
@Rich G: CWS and Runway are two very different things and while CWS is superb when coming to evaluate and demo Umbraco, the idea with Runway is that it can become a foundation for more than a demo, but an actual site. It's also been designed for extensibility and hopefully it'll bloom soon as we add designs and more modules to it.
Hi Guys
the fact that my post was met with such acceptance shows you have a good product and a cool community. I suppose its good to hear that im not the only one that has had these issues, i had a feeling i might get a post back telling me that i missed the big red button at the top of the page or something simple like that.
i'll take a look at the starter kit and see if it helps me understand Umbraco's way. as i said i havent given up, just need to find something good to play with that will help me get moving on a site. from there i can write controls and extensions.
Quintin
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